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	<title>Comments on: The Truth About the Bailout</title>
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	<description>Civilization at the Peak</description>
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		<title>By: Cy</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-9328</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-9328</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am curious as to your educational background and current professional endeavors.  Your posts are thought provoking, and smacks of my own growing internal understandings, mostly those born of a rehab&#039;d republican.  Intuitively, from the standpoint of the tyranny that existed in th years preceding the American Revolution, we are sliding into the self made pits of oppression.  To have turned our backs on the lives that fought for sovereignity over the years, only to discover we have bedded and wedded our worst enemies, of misinformation, unwittingly dispossessed ourselves with propoganda and political inaction and like a long night of drunkeness, thus, will wonder what happened in the night.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am curious as to your educational background and current professional endeavors.  Your posts are thought provoking, and smacks of my own growing internal understandings, mostly those born of a rehab&#8217;d republican.  Intuitively, from the standpoint of the tyranny that existed in th years preceding the American Revolution, we are sliding into the self made pits of oppression.  To have turned our backs on the lives that fought for sovereignity over the years, only to discover we have bedded and wedded our worst enemies, of misinformation, unwittingly dispossessed ourselves with propoganda and political inaction and like a long night of drunkeness, thus, will wonder what happened in the night.</p>
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		<title>By: diddywa</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-8026</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[diddywa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 03:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-8026</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have missed you somehow on NC.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have missed you somehow on NC.</p>
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		<title>By: Russ</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-5115</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Russ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 12:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-5115</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s nothing &quot;working&quot; about my use of the term &lt;i&gt;feudalism.&lt;/i&gt; I&#039;ve always meant the same thing by it going back to the first post where I used it:

http://attempter.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/globalization-brief/

By &quot;technology&quot; I meant modern technology which transcends being a tool, but which in dialectical turn becomes dominant over humans themselves, forcing them to conform to it as least as much as it obeys them.

I don&#039;t have a clear rule for when that changeover occurs, although there too fossil fuels seem to have been the critical input.

As far as technology&#039;s dictatorship over humanity, I&#039;m also not certain what&#039;s the proportion of technology&#039;s own inertia (even many anarchists implicitly admit they&#039;re slaves to this or that modern technology and can&#039;t imagine life without it), and what&#039;s the result of strategic deployment by elites.

At any rate, the latter is politically the most important point, so that&#039;s the one I focus on.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s nothing &#8220;working&#8221; about my use of the term <i>feudalism.</i> I&#8217;ve always meant the same thing by it going back to the first post where I used it:</p>
<p><a href="http://attempter.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/globalization-brief/" rel="nofollow">http://attempter.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/globalization-brief/</a></p>
<p>By &#8220;technology&#8221; I meant modern technology which transcends being a tool, but which in dialectical turn becomes dominant over humans themselves, forcing them to conform to it as least as much as it obeys them.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have a clear rule for when that changeover occurs, although there too fossil fuels seem to have been the critical input.</p>
<p>As far as technology&#8217;s dictatorship over humanity, I&#8217;m also not certain what&#8217;s the proportion of technology&#8217;s own inertia (even many anarchists implicitly admit they&#8217;re slaves to this or that modern technology and can&#8217;t imagine life without it), and what&#8217;s the result of strategic deployment by elites.</p>
<p>At any rate, the latter is politically the most important point, so that&#8217;s the one I focus on.</p>
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		<title>By: Russ</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-5114</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Russ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 12:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-5114</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hope it can eventually, Lidia. But it&#039;s true that the earth has never been free of such things. And today we have the collapsing global empire which will do all it can to stir up such conflicts to try to help prolong itself.

I do think that the conscious philosophy and intentional practice of positive democracy is our best bet to overcome such age-old sources of conflict.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope it can eventually, Lidia. But it&#8217;s true that the earth has never been free of such things. And today we have the collapsing global empire which will do all it can to stir up such conflicts to try to help prolong itself.</p>
<p>I do think that the conscious philosophy and intentional practice of positive democracy is our best bet to overcome such age-old sources of conflict.</p>
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		<title>By: Lidia</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-5113</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lidia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 11:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-5113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Russ, while you&#039;re having fun refining your working definition of feudalism (wink!), you might want to re-visit (or you might not) your statement about being &quot;skeptical at best toward… technology&quot;.

Technology is merely &quot;know-how&quot;. Mastering a craft, art, or skill. Writing, pencils, and books are &quot;technologies&quot;. Banging open a pine nut using a rock is &quot;technology&quot;.

Maybe the technologies you take issue with have the characteristic of not being widely accessible or &quot;democratic&quot;. Those, I would agree, tend toward the suspect. However, much as genetically-modified foodstuffs or atom bombs are horrid technologies, so is the universal cheap-and-easy-to-set-up waterboard (just to re-introduce our medieval theme!).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russ, while you&#8217;re having fun refining your working definition of feudalism (wink!), you might want to re-visit (or you might not) your statement about being &#8220;skeptical at best toward… technology&#8221;.</p>
<p>Technology is merely &#8220;know-how&#8221;. Mastering a craft, art, or skill. Writing, pencils, and books are &#8220;technologies&#8221;. Banging open a pine nut using a rock is &#8220;technology&#8221;.</p>
<p>Maybe the technologies you take issue with have the characteristic of not being widely accessible or &#8220;democratic&#8221;. Those, I would agree, tend toward the suspect. However, much as genetically-modified foodstuffs or atom bombs are horrid technologies, so is the universal cheap-and-easy-to-set-up waterboard (just to re-introduce our medieval theme!).</p>
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		<title>By: Lidia</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-5112</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lidia]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 10:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-5112</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jim, what about feudalism is, to you, synonymous with &quot;Western Christianity&quot; in the first place? To me, it describes an economic structure, not a culture or religion. I&#039;m not a great student of history, but to my knowledge, the Japanese, Chinese and so forth had feudal societies.  

I haven&#039;t seen anyone on this blog defending the totalitarian regimes of Stalin or Mao. What I have seen are people trying to open up the eyes (of Americans, for the most part) to the fact that state capitalism is, also, its own kind of totalitarianism.

=====
If you&#039;re concerned about reality subverting mumbo-jumbo, meanwhile, I can&#039;t say that I&#039;m all that sorry for your displeasure. The Church has been a horrific tool of oppression and exploitation all on its own: the excuse for the existence of another pointless parasitical class, offering the downtrodden scraps of hope in an afterlife, in order to distract them from the one currently on offer. Christian churches are profoundly authoritarian and generally pride themselves on their refusal to challenge, if not their outright support of, right-wing/corporate governments and the status quo. (I say right-wing, only because left-wing totalitarian governments did away with them as institutions.)

Not to say that there aren&#039;t some good religious people involved in social justice movements. This is a favorite quote of mine: &quot;When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why are they poor, they call me a Communist.&quot; -Hélder Câmara

The Middle Ages may have a special spiritual significance for you, Jim, but I see them as marked by expansionist Crusades (which the US is currently re-enacting), the wholesale torture and murder of &quot;heretics&quot; and &quot;witches&quot;, the novel idea of exempting the clergy from taxes, the expropriation and special taxation of Jews along with edicts of total expulsion (England, Spain), etc., etc., etc.   If these are the &quot;roots of Western humanity&quot;, then I&#039;m re-thinking my attitude towards Round-Up.

------
I&#039;d like Russ, in his honing, to see if he can address the questions I posed earlier: can the re-localization that we must undergo occur without falling prey to violent and energy-sucking tribalism, racism and religionism? Can we create a new positive appreciation of place? of limits as positive challenges? Of spiritual work as an internalized individual process rather than an externalized group process? Can we agree that we are all of one blood, and that we are all connected to and dependent upon a single life-giving entity, which is not supernatural but completely natural: the actual earth we are standing on?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, what about feudalism is, to you, synonymous with &#8220;Western Christianity&#8221; in the first place? To me, it describes an economic structure, not a culture or religion. I&#8217;m not a great student of history, but to my knowledge, the Japanese, Chinese and so forth had feudal societies.  </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t seen anyone on this blog defending the totalitarian regimes of Stalin or Mao. What I have seen are people trying to open up the eyes (of Americans, for the most part) to the fact that state capitalism is, also, its own kind of totalitarianism.</p>
<p>=====<br />
If you&#8217;re concerned about reality subverting mumbo-jumbo, meanwhile, I can&#8217;t say that I&#8217;m all that sorry for your displeasure. The Church has been a horrific tool of oppression and exploitation all on its own: the excuse for the existence of another pointless parasitical class, offering the downtrodden scraps of hope in an afterlife, in order to distract them from the one currently on offer. Christian churches are profoundly authoritarian and generally pride themselves on their refusal to challenge, if not their outright support of, right-wing/corporate governments and the status quo. (I say right-wing, only because left-wing totalitarian governments did away with them as institutions.)</p>
<p>Not to say that there aren&#8217;t some good religious people involved in social justice movements. This is a favorite quote of mine: &#8220;When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why are they poor, they call me a Communist.&#8221; -Hélder Câmara</p>
<p>The Middle Ages may have a special spiritual significance for you, Jim, but I see them as marked by expansionist Crusades (which the US is currently re-enacting), the wholesale torture and murder of &#8220;heretics&#8221; and &#8220;witches&#8221;, the novel idea of exempting the clergy from taxes, the expropriation and special taxation of Jews along with edicts of total expulsion (England, Spain), etc., etc., etc.   If these are the &#8220;roots of Western humanity&#8221;, then I&#8217;m re-thinking my attitude towards Round-Up.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;<br />
I&#8217;d like Russ, in his honing, to see if he can address the questions I posed earlier: can the re-localization that we must undergo occur without falling prey to violent and energy-sucking tribalism, racism and religionism? Can we create a new positive appreciation of place? of limits as positive challenges? Of spiritual work as an internalized individual process rather than an externalized group process? Can we agree that we are all of one blood, and that we are all connected to and dependent upon a single life-giving entity, which is not supernatural but completely natural: the actual earth we are standing on?</p>
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		<title>By: Russ</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-5111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Russ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 09:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-5111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll be more specific. By feudal economy I refer to an economy based on sterile hoarding by an elite, based on the direct exploitation of a peasant class tied to the land. This is in contrast with the textbook/theoretical capitalist practice of dynamically putting all capital to use at all times. (But as I tried to express in my two most recent posts, the &quot;capitalist&quot; era was really never anything but a feudal-capitalist hybrid, and economic elites always leaned toward monopoly and looked ahead to a final state where all assets were monopolized and had once again become static. After all, in spite of capitalist propaganda about the infinitude of the earth, deep down everyone always knew the earth was finite, and someday it would no longer be possible to keep repeating the prior accumulations capitalism keeps needing. Someday the terminal accumulation would have to be carried out. With Peak Oil and the final maturation of all capitalist sectors, that&#039;s where we are now.)

And of course it&#039;s in total contrast with any form of socialism or democracy.

In the post-oil neofeudalism being planned, most workers will return literally to this land peasant status. (This will be necessary to replace fossil fuel agricultural inputs.) But in general we&#039;ll be tied to our &quot;job&quot; serfdom through systematic debt indenture. The result will be the same socioeconomic and juridical status as that of the medieval serf.
 
I don&#039;t know if you read this post
 
http://attempter.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/part-4-the-full-fury-of-the-new-feudal-war-the-intended-end-state/
 
but it makes most clear what I mean by neofeudal.

So I think it does bear comparison with the worst of our modern tyrannies. It&#039;s the modern, corporatist totalitarian form of the old feudal structure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll be more specific. By feudal economy I refer to an economy based on sterile hoarding by an elite, based on the direct exploitation of a peasant class tied to the land. This is in contrast with the textbook/theoretical capitalist practice of dynamically putting all capital to use at all times. (But as I tried to express in my two most recent posts, the &#8220;capitalist&#8221; era was really never anything but a feudal-capitalist hybrid, and economic elites always leaned toward monopoly and looked ahead to a final state where all assets were monopolized and had once again become static. After all, in spite of capitalist propaganda about the infinitude of the earth, deep down everyone always knew the earth was finite, and someday it would no longer be possible to keep repeating the prior accumulations capitalism keeps needing. Someday the terminal accumulation would have to be carried out. With Peak Oil and the final maturation of all capitalist sectors, that&#8217;s where we are now.)</p>
<p>And of course it&#8217;s in total contrast with any form of socialism or democracy.</p>
<p>In the post-oil neofeudalism being planned, most workers will return literally to this land peasant status. (This will be necessary to replace fossil fuel agricultural inputs.) But in general we&#8217;ll be tied to our &#8220;job&#8221; serfdom through systematic debt indenture. The result will be the same socioeconomic and juridical status as that of the medieval serf.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you read this post</p>
<p><a href="http://attempter.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/part-4-the-full-fury-of-the-new-feudal-war-the-intended-end-state/" rel="nofollow">http://attempter.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/part-4-the-full-fury-of-the-new-feudal-war-the-intended-end-state/</a></p>
<p>but it makes most clear what I mean by neofeudal.</p>
<p>So I think it does bear comparison with the worst of our modern tyrannies. It&#8217;s the modern, corporatist totalitarian form of the old feudal structure.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-5110</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 08:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-5110</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I meant to post it here--re point 5. There is something profoundly subversive of Western Christianity in this continual abusive use of the term feudal to suggest the acme of tyranny and exploitation. It is almost like an unconscious conspiracy, if you will, since it is really all-pervasive. If one wants examples of utter tyranny, we don&#039;t have to go further than the immediate present, or if you prefer, to twentieth century communism.  Why isn&#039;t Stalinist Russia held-up as one such example, or Maoist China? Because there is a powerful anti-traditional and, as I said, profoundly subversive current in the culture, which has a dissolving effect on the very roots of Western humanity. There is literally no common measure between modern tyrannies and the middle ages. Have a look at Regine Pernoud&#039;s &quot;Those Terrible Middle Ages,&quot; as well as at Rene Guenon&#039;s &quot;The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times,&quot; and finally, at Frithjof Schuon&#039;s &quot;Light on the Ancient Worlds.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant to post it here&#8211;re point 5. There is something profoundly subversive of Western Christianity in this continual abusive use of the term feudal to suggest the acme of tyranny and exploitation. It is almost like an unconscious conspiracy, if you will, since it is really all-pervasive. If one wants examples of utter tyranny, we don&#8217;t have to go further than the immediate present, or if you prefer, to twentieth century communism.  Why isn&#8217;t Stalinist Russia held-up as one such example, or Maoist China? Because there is a powerful anti-traditional and, as I said, profoundly subversive current in the culture, which has a dissolving effect on the very roots of Western humanity. There is literally no common measure between modern tyrannies and the middle ages. Have a look at Regine Pernoud&#8217;s &#8220;Those Terrible Middle Ages,&#8221; as well as at Rene Guenon&#8217;s &#8220;The Reign of Quantity and the Signs of the Times,&#8221; and finally, at Frithjof Schuon&#8217;s &#8220;Light on the Ancient Worlds.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Russ</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-5108</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Russ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 07:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-5108</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jim, I agree with that. As I&#039;ve written, I&#039;m skeptical at best toward industrialism, technology, and the Enlightenment, and opposed to scientism.

And I know the feudal history you mention. My descriptions here, pejorative as you say, refer to the fact that today&#039;s kleptocracy wants to restore the most tyrannical economic and political features of feudalism. They want the worst of all worlds.

In fact, somewhere I wrote that this neo-feudalism is far worse than the medieval variety, because it would be imposed on a population with no organic, native cohesion, no connection with the land, no practical knowledge of it, and lacking even whatever consolation medieval Christianity offered.

It&#039;ll just be the direct exploitation and brutalization of a helpless, confused aggregation of atoms.

That&#039;s what the criminals intend. So we need to work to defeat that, on every level.

BTW, did you mean to post this comment in this thread, or in the one about corporations and feudalism?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim, I agree with that. As I&#8217;ve written, I&#8217;m skeptical at best toward industrialism, technology, and the Enlightenment, and opposed to scientism.</p>
<p>And I know the feudal history you mention. My descriptions here, pejorative as you say, refer to the fact that today&#8217;s kleptocracy wants to restore the most tyrannical economic and political features of feudalism. They want the worst of all worlds.</p>
<p>In fact, somewhere I wrote that this neo-feudalism is far worse than the medieval variety, because it would be imposed on a population with no organic, native cohesion, no connection with the land, no practical knowledge of it, and lacking even whatever consolation medieval Christianity offered.</p>
<p>It&#8217;ll just be the direct exploitation and brutalization of a helpless, confused aggregation of atoms.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what the criminals intend. So we need to work to defeat that, on every level.</p>
<p>BTW, did you mean to post this comment in this thread, or in the one about corporations and feudalism?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://attempter.wordpress.com/the-truth-about-the-bailout/#comment-5103</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 03:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://attempter.wordpress.com/?page_id=524#comment-5103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[BTW, the word &quot;feudal&quot; has entered the vocabulary with a pure pejorative significance, practically synonymous with &quot;neanderthal&quot; or &quot;stone age.&quot; This reflects a great ignorance of the age, which actually was the flowering of Christendom, and in a sense expresses what is deepest in Western man. Of course, today our bias is in favor of technology and its industrial &quot;civilization,&quot; as well as in favor of scientistic views of reality, stemming from the &quot;enlightenment.&quot;  But men have not always thought thus. Neither Jesus, nor Plato, nor the Buddha, nor Shankara, etc. etc. In short the most spiritual men have not thought thus.

Many feudal arrangement stemmed from the fact of a vast social insecurity as a result of the breakdown of the Roman Empire. Also, kingship in the sense it had prior to the renaissance, was far from the absolutist monarchies that came later and were immediately prior to the modern world.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, the word &#8220;feudal&#8221; has entered the vocabulary with a pure pejorative significance, practically synonymous with &#8220;neanderthal&#8221; or &#8220;stone age.&#8221; This reflects a great ignorance of the age, which actually was the flowering of Christendom, and in a sense expresses what is deepest in Western man. Of course, today our bias is in favor of technology and its industrial &#8220;civilization,&#8221; as well as in favor of scientistic views of reality, stemming from the &#8220;enlightenment.&#8221;  But men have not always thought thus. Neither Jesus, nor Plato, nor the Buddha, nor Shankara, etc. etc. In short the most spiritual men have not thought thus.</p>
<p>Many feudal arrangement stemmed from the fact of a vast social insecurity as a result of the breakdown of the Roman Empire. Also, kingship in the sense it had prior to the renaissance, was far from the absolutist monarchies that came later and were immediately prior to the modern world.</p>
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